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Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Episode highlight

There's three types of fun, fun for the player, fun for the designer, and fun for the computer. Is it PvP?

Open segment page 0:00 on YouTube

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Introduction

Now, meanwhile, as far as the outside world is concerned, you've disappeared off the face of the earth, but you were actually working on a game. The following is a conversation with Jeff Kaplan, a legendary game designer of World of Warcraft and Overwatch, which are two of the biggest, most influential games ever made. He is genuinely one of the most amazing human beings I've ever met. In the many conversations I was fortunate enough to have with him, including while playing video games, he was always kind, thoughtful, hilarious, and still and forever a legit gamer, through and through. Of course, he's always quick to celebrate the incredible teams of creative minds he has gotten a chance to work with over the years, and they are truly incredible. Blizzard has created some of the greatest games ever made, games that to me personally have brought me thousands of hours of fun, meaning, and happiness, from Warcraft, to StarCraft, to Diablo, WoW, Overwatch and more. So for that, a big thank you to Jeff, to the entire Blizzard team, and to every creative mind in the video game industry, giving their heart and soul to build video game worlds that we fans get a chance to enjoy. This was a super fun, inspiring, whirlwind conversation, pun intended, with one of the most beloved gamers and game designers ever. Full of memes, lulz, wisdom, emotional rollercoaster moments, and of course, Blizzard video game lore.

Open segment page 1:27 on YouTube

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Early games: Pac-Man, Zork, Doom, Quake

You were first a legendary video game player, in particular in EverQuest, before you ever became a legendary video game designer on World of Warcraft and on Overwatch, which I think is a wild journey to go through from gamer to designer. But first, let's go way back. When did you first fall in love with video games? I was lucky. I was born in that golden era of coin-op. So, I literally remember the first time seeing Pac-Man. I was with my Uncle Ronnie, and he just kept feeding me quarters. I think he wanted to play, but was too scared to, so he, you know, his little nephew, he was just giving him quarters to play Pac-Man. I remember being at my brother's graduation in Philadelphia, and they had an Asteroids machine in the lobby. That was one of the first coin-op machines I had played as well. And my brother and I would... we would try to get the high score, and we'd finally get it. But we had to go to bed early 'cause we were little kids. And then in the morning somebody else had like beat our high score. And then, you know, I grew up in Southern California in the '80s. I was born in '72.

Open segment page 4:07 on YouTube

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Writing career

It was the feeling like you were there. Yeah, what an incredible age. And some of that, the storytelling, a lot of that is the technology that brings that kind of 3D world to life. It's incredible. But before we get too far on that tangent, you mentioned grad school. We should mention that you have a master's degree in creative writing from NYU, and you wanted to be a writer. You told me your main influences were Kerouac, but also Hemingway, Salinger, Bukowski, Orwell. What drew you to storytelling in that medium of writing? What aspect of the human experience were you trying to put down on paper? Well, it started with being a fan first and being inspired and reading, and it's the, not only being transported to a different world or into a different person, but also, you know, the way that stories can touch emotions in you and trigger feelings sometimes you didn't even know you had. And that was very appealing for me. And the big challenge with it is, and I think this is for anybody who creates anything, is putting yourself out there. To some degree, there's a lot of ego that goes into that moment where you say, "Well, I've been reading, you know, 1984 or Green Hills of Stranglethorn, and I think it's amazing. And now I'm gonna try to write something that somebody is gonna read."

Open segment page 18:33 on YouTube

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

EverQuest obsession

Gradually and suddenly. So when I had that fateful moment where I just sort of gave up with writing, I had these days where I'd structure eight-hour chunks of just, this was writing time, you know? I'd sit solitary typing. All that was gone. And, you know, I could still support myself, which was nice. And then I had this free time and I wasn't spending it with anybody, I was just alone. Me and the dog, Jack. And I just poured it all into EverQuest. You know, I, it was 1999 when that game came out. And I had a friend, Victor, like kind of a lifelong friend. One of the few friends I had who played computer games, 'cause there was a stigma to that. You know? It wasn't, you didn't walk around telling people you played games. They thought you wasted your time. And my friend, Vic, had bought EverQuest. I'm like, "That's that game that that guy Brian Hook went to work on. Is it good?" And he's like, "Yeah, you gotta play it." And the moment I logged in, I was just transported. It was the world of Norrath. And it wasn't just the world itself and how it looked, I thought the game was gorgeous, it was the mechanics, you know, that I was this halfling rogue that, you know, had to go out and adventure in the world, and when I killed stuff, I got experience, and I needed better loot to kill more stuff to get more experience. And the sort of draw of progression in the game was amazing.

Open segment page 34:06 on YouTube

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Getting hired at Blizzard

So speaking of which, you have to tell the epic origin story of how you got the job at Blizzard. As we said, you were this legendary gamer, and now legendary troll, on EverQuest. Username, Tigole. You gave a lot of edgy feedback to the devs, telling them in now famous... There's several rants. There's a famous one where you tell many of them to do a bunch of things, including to pull their heads out of their asses. You were loved and respected because you gave a lot of specific ways that the game could be improved. And that's an important thing to say. You weren't just talking shit. You actually really loved and cared for the game, and you gave them, in the language of the time, advice on how to improve their game. And it's funny, because, like, you look back to those messages, it's inspiring to me. It should be informative and inspiring to a lot of people, because you're really, legit, full-time talking shit. And now, and you always have been, like, one of the kindest, most loved human beings in the entire gaming industry. Anyway, how did that lead to you getting a job at Blizzard?

Open segment page 47:04 on YouTube

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Episode #493March 11, 2026Unknown

Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming

Legendary Game Designer

Jeff Kaplan is a legendary Blizzard game designer of World of Warcraft and Overwatch, now preparing to launch a new game, The Legend of California, from his new studio Kintsugiyama - available to wishlist on Steam today, with alpha later in March. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep493-sc See below for timestamps, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc.

Jeff Kaplan Artificial Intelligence Geopolitics Biology Games

Find the 5 minutes worth hearing in a 3-hour episode.

What you can do here

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Featured segments

Episode highlight

Introduction

Early games: Pac-Man, Zork, Doom, Quake

Writing career

EverQuest obsession

Getting hired at Blizzard

Latest episodes

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